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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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I don't see this is taking any further. Well at least it's sure AROS is part of the Amiga community: Not open for new suggestions, no looking into the future, and having fun to prick on someone.

Well, then play along with with AROS like now until no one will be interested in it, because the last ones will notice that on operating system, which only has no important software, which isn't even working on all hardware because there are no drivers, has no future.

It's ashamed that a great operating system like AmigaOS has no chance to exist on modern computers because the scene is splitted in too different parts, trying to run the OS only on old systems. That includes AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS.

Paolo, you have my mail address, if there something happens what could be a step forward you could tell me, otherwise I'm not wasting my time here. I've got better things to do.

Cheers.

Posted on: 2013/7/25 3:38
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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@Fats: People with a writing style like phoenixkonsole are better? Well, here's the translated text from the post above... he wrote it in German so that not all could read his blamings.

Quote:
You're going me so on the balls now.
I've posted the link to my store, so you can see how easy it is to compile AROS compatible systems.
It was not about to sell you one. On the contrary, I would send you a cancellation.

Because patties like you are there AEROS only for normal people and not for everyone run-along snob, to fine for self.

If you were actively involved at least. Everyone can blabber. Even those who are not programmed to participate.

Write a review yet, create icons, donate.
I'm half-greek but did understand your provocation.
But you are topping the elite of the Greek parasites (a small part of 7 million community) alone with your basic attitude.

In order to remain rational, I told you can realize you possiblities how to realize your interests in this community.

These are there. Otherwise, wait like a tick till others finance or implement to your dream.

So, in just one post you use for me

- a negative genital expression
- a comparison with fried hamburger meat
- a snob insult
- that I'm only telling stupid stuff (= blabbering)
- a comparison with some thousands of people which are keeping away the money of a community
- and that I'm a blood-sucking arachnid parasite.

You really did a lot of work searching for insults. And the people shouldn't read it, otherwise you could have written it in English.


I already participiated in AROS and did stuff. But it was never really used. Not even the description how to create a better GRUB2 bootloader menu. Because of this and because my hardware has no updated drivers, I had no reason to do anything more here. Especcially you would be the best reason for this. You were neither rational in this thread, nor have you given useful possibilities how to realize my interests. Already in your first post (#4 in the thread), you were against my idea.

Quote:
it is senseless to define a "PC" as reference Platform.. it gets too fast way too old.
The existing drivers cover 90% of all available motherboards (at least in germany). So I don't have any problem to build a sub 200€ PC for AROS out of new stuff.

For ARM we need to define a sort of ABI v0 before we port apps to it.
It is not like on PC where we have ABIv0 and ABI v0.

On ARM we habe something like ABI "Work-in-progress".
Deadwood check the possibility to define a "base platform" where we can start to port apps over.

Than... there is still coreboot. With coreboot you have a minimal LInuxkernel in your BIOS-rom, from where you can launch AROS hosted. Hosted would feel as it would run natively. WIP.

SO basically I see no problem for the future. I will focus myself on ARM and pico-its stuff.

AROS64 bit does exist but has the same problem as ARM branch.

With this post you also showed that ARM is your favorite platform, also completely against my the idea of my topic. And the most people are using x86 computers, so the ARM thing seems to be a personal wish of you. The following posts of you were about donation or personal attacks and insults against me. Unfortunately, you can't insult me because I can only laugh about these kind of people who are running out of arguments and start insulting instead. By the way, please write in English from now on, that's being fair to the community.


Is nobody noticing - especcially moderators and the forum leader - that the simple question about a platform reduction to reduce driver programming to bring AROS more forward, has degenerated in an insult battle? How about of doing something useful, f.e. creating the poll I explained some pages ago, to ask the community what they want. During this time, more than 1000 views are on this thread. So it seems to be the topic is interesting the forum members. But because the the most posts here never really were about the topic, just filled with discussions about donating and insults, no one is writing here, it wouldn't make no sense. That's why a new thread with a poll should be opened. But, then please with a better writing style.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 16:29

Edited by RC_tech on 2013/7/24 16:50:14
Edited by RC_tech on 2013/7/24 16:51:26
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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At least you can write better, michalsc ;)

To the money stuff again: It's a principle of me, open-source freeware must be free. If there aren't created drivers for a special purpose, then it seems that the project is not interesting enough to get it working. I'm active in the net, writing guides and reviews, helping as far as I can and whatever. I can good explain and so on. But I never take money for that. In a good community - in which people should be friends - everything should made for free, just with the effort got get a project working.

To OSx86: Some early drivers were patched by Apple, but later more and more were completely new. Drivers for nForce, VIA and Intel chipsets, ethernet and audio drivers, huge amounts of graphic drivers, the special Natit graphics driver, AGP support and so on. The reprogrammed Darwin kernel was containing an SSE3 emulator from the beginning, so it could be installed on older CPU's like the Pentium 4 or older Athlon 64. The most improvement was the Voodoo 9.5.0 kernel which was more advanced as the one from Apple. It supported the i7 before Apple could handle it correctly, has a much better SSE3-emulator, an AMD on-the-fly-patcher and various debug options. Well, and the Chameleon Bootloader allowed to emulate a complete EFI environment, so a PC is much closer to a normal Intel-Mac. By the way, Apple released BootCamp only after hackers already installed Windows on Intel-Macs.

To: Android-x86: Well, some drivers are also not working, my Thinkpad x61t has an Atheros 5000 WLAN card which works even fine in AROS, but not in Android-x86. So without Ethernet it's as useless as AROS without sound.

Buying hardware: In the most OS communities it isn't neccessary to buy hardware, because a lot hardware is available. Well, here I asked about ATI driver and me was quickly told that they are not supported and I should by a nVidia card. I don't have even a PC with AGP anymore, and my other slower computers are laptops. In this thread phoenixconsole also wanted that I should by his computers, so it's really a money problem here.

Porting: Porting to many platforms is not bad, but it leads to problems. If you compare, the most Linux PPC versions aren't continued anymore. Apple also skipped PPC support since 10.7. Adobe doesn't even support 32bit on Intel OS X anymore. That's something a bit hard, but going away from older platforms to newer ones is something what is acceptable.

If an OS is programmed, it must be worth the effort. It's not only the OS which should be programmed, there also must be applications for it. Applications for Intel 32bit are enough, and the chance for 64bit also wouldn't be bad. ARM is more difficult. But there could be an idea to make it more intersting: Including an ARM emulator in the x86 version. So ARM applications can work in the x86 versions too. That could make programming ARM-based applications more interesting. Here's a list for main AROS versions which could be focused on:

- Intel x86 with ARM-Emulator
- Intel 64bit with ARM-Emulator
- ARM for machines like the Raspberry Pi
- hosted ARM for Android

hosted Intel versions may be possible, but AROS also works fine from an USB stick, so an installation on HD isn't neccessary. By the way, there are no real distros for f.e. a hosted version. You only have the system software and nothing more.


@phoenixkonsole:

You're from Greece? Well, it fits perfect. Instead of listening to advices from others, blocking, blaming and insulting follows. And the ones you're insulting should pay, but they don't should check what happens with the money. And if they don't pay, there's more blocking and insulting. I hope you get the point.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 12:54
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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Are you really a grown up-person? Your writing style is lower than the one of a teenager on drugs.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 11:53
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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Sorry, I'm strictly against paying. If the programmers of every driver for Linux, OSx86, the x86-portation of Android or whatever had only started after they got enough money, we wouldn't have a lot less alternative operationg systems.

How are the donations organized anyone? Are the programmers getting their money after it's finished 100%? And what amount of the full pot?

I'm comparing again with the OSx86 scene. They started about 2006, I presume I had in about May 2006 my first Tiger 10.4.5 system on my AMD Athlon 64 working, without LAN, SATA and graphics in 1280x1024 without Core Image and Quartz Extreme graphics in 60 Hz on a CRT monitor. But it was amazing how many software worked, and the most stuff was PPC in this time. Only a short time after the release of 10.4.6 my board and graphics card was supported 100%.


Check out what the Amiga scene is now:

- classic 68k: Old, but pure Amiga. Nothing is more compatible. Lots of games and free software. Only expansion cards are expensive.

- AmigaOS 4: PPC, runs on ridicilous expensive computers like the X1000 with old-aged PPCs which will probably not built anymore in the next time, because Apple bought the company. Not much expansion possible because the drivers are missing.

- MorphOS: PPC, fastest, possibly most useful version because it works on PPC Macs and Powerbooks. But it costs more than 100 Euro, works only on one computer. New programming efforts like the G5 port or ATI 3D graphics enchancement were started after paying bonties with thousands of Euros. It's probably the most expensive AmigaOS variant.

- AROS: various platforms. Nice try to support as many hardware, but not successful because there are only a few developers. Additional software is nearly only available for x86. A reduction to a limited number of platforms isn't accepted. Result: Still mainly old x86-32bit with only partially supported systems.


There is already enough hacking about the various versions, it's like the Atari ST/Amiga, C64/Spectrum computer wars those days. The one want MorphOS, the others AmigaOS 4. Some want AROS, but that's blasphemy for real Amiga geeks because it's Intel. And the AROS scene is also splitted, some want ARM, the other wants Intel with a lot of supported boards, the other ones prefer hosted... Do you really think AROS is getting further that way?

But at least I think we're all have the same opinion that 68k is the real Amiga, or isn't it? Oh crap... there's the difference between 3.1 and 3.5/3.9... my dear.


I have to say it again: it is neccessary to focus AROS to a modern platform, otherwise it has no future. Lightweigt Linux versions for older like Lubuntu have a chance, because it can use drivers and software from Ubuntu.

If you all want bounties: What if the coders are getting their bounty money to build a system which should be used as reference system? They could use this for other purposes, too. But that's all then, not a cent more. And it has to bring results. That could best be done by splitting the work. It could begin with 32bit, but the goal is a 64bit-version with full memory support.


By the way: There are actually 300 views more in just a few hours, but only half the thread is about the topic, the other half is about donations.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 11:21
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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At least the fact that you are using the expression 'bullshit' means that you won't have suggestions or accept changes. 'Find people...' means the same, because you know that there are not enough developers to get full working 32bit-Intel systems including drivers finished. And by using 'your fork' it's visible to see that you don't understand or don't WANT to unterstand my idea, reducing the development to a few amount of platforms and drivers.

The idea with the money is also no wonder that it's yours, at least your selling your devices at vesalia and so on. You're making money with something a freeware community made. Have you paid the people who made the API portation, drivers, software, icons etc., for every unit you have sold already?

Paying for something of an open-source community is something I'm definetively not I'm doing, especcially since the OSx86 developer JaS opened a complete website 'Donate for my MacBook'. He maybe made some things, but since his 10.4.8 DVD was a heavy bug in the Disk Utility, which was kept in all versions up to 10.4.11. If someone in an open-source community is only doing something if he gets money for it, that's a very bad behaviour. Freeware is freeware, and done for fun in spare time. Doing something just only for money it is not good. I have donated for the OSx86 forums I am, but because I'm since 2006 in them and the community went quickly much bigger, so faster servers were neccessary. And there were noticeable results, that's not the fact with AROS. And suggestions aren't accepted here, as it seems. So why should be paid for something here? If I'm doing something for any kind of community, I never want money for it. A simple written 'thanks' is enough for me.

I'm no programmer, because I hate modern languages with its variable declarations, compilers, debuggers and so on. I need fast-to-use languages like Commodore BASIC, AmigaDOS or ARexx. I prefer a ?FORMULA TOO COMPLEX ERROR IN 1340 with manual correction as waiting before the debugger allows a start. The only more complex language I want to learn is 8502/65816 assembler on the C128, assembler is fascinating me. But I don't find the time to it.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 6:40
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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I heard sometimes that's a problem that AROS is open-source, but that's not the problem. The problem is, that there's no directed development, like erbsenbirne said. Actually we also have three distributions, all Intel 32-bit. Linux has more than 100 distros, but they lowered down, a lot are using Ubuntu today. OSx86 has in its early days also a lot of different Install-DVDs, I tested a minimum of 50 versions, and that were not all. Today it's possible to install from an unpatched 10.6 Mac OS X install DVD.

I have the feeling that some here are rather negative, only saying that I want to force to use my hardware, words like whining, trolling and whatever followed. Only a few understood that my proposal was created by the idea to reduce the number of platforms (and distros) to bring AROS forward.

If anyone has noticed it, this thread is just two days old and has already more than 550 views. It seems a lot of people are interested in what's it about. So I'd recommend that we do a poll. Let's ask the community about the future to what AROS should focus on. That would be my recommendations:

- Intel Core-i with HD graphics
- AMD with integrated graphics
- PowerPC
- ARM
- older systems
- no change at all

ARM should include also hosted versions for Android tablets and phones, but with full hardware access.

That could be a method. But it includes the fact, that if the poll's result is ignored, the developers would prove that they're really not able to do something what the community wants. If 'older systems' or 'no change' wins, you have luck, but then I don't see a future for AROS.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 5:35

Edited by RC_tech on 2013/7/24 6:56:30
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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@Kalamatee:

Quote:
Doesn't it make you laugh how many people who have a vested interest in a single platform (generally because they want to profit from AROS) insist it needs to only support the devices they view as suitable - and everyone needs to change to their narrow view?


Well, tell this phoenixkonsole, he directly posted a link to his shop. I was always using AMD, I wasn't needing the power of an Quad-i7 or somehing else, I just needed a CPU with the SSSE3 chipset (for OSx86) and which is modern enough that I haven't to ugrade so soon.

Quote:
If they spent half the time actually reporting bugs that they do trolling/whining AROS would get much further forward.

Though I suspect its easier to sit back and try to belittle other peoples work and make false implications than to bother putting any effort in themselves.


Interesting to read that you see suggestion = trolling. This word is alway used when arguments are running out. And there is also no whining about AROS not getting forward - I'm not using it anymore because there will be nothing new. But I would like, otherwise I hadn't opened this thread. It seems you haven't thought so far.


@Paolo:

I don't say that a Core i7 system is cheap, but you can do it. Lay away a bit of money for two or three months and it would be possible. I'm also not rich, but I'm building my second i7 system now, as a system which has a lower power consumption. Ways to save costs:

- Buy only tray Core i3, i5 or i7 with Intel HD4000 graphics, so you don't need a graphics card. The most efficient is the Ivy Bridge Core i7 3770S with 4x3.1 GHz and 65W TDP. Price: About 260 Euro in Germany, I got mine for 200 Euro.

- Buy a board with a good Chipset, f.e. Z77. It has everything you need, and Gigabyte DualBIOS boards are also ideal for OSx86. My second system is an Mini-ITX-board Gigabyte GA-Z77N WiFi. For OSx86 you have to change the Mini-PCI-e WiFI card. If you use one with Atheros 5000 chipset, it will work on AROS,too. Price new about 125 Euro.

- You can choose how may RAM you need, I'm always upgrading to the max, so I never have to upgrade. 16 GB DDR3 are about 150 Euro. GEIL Evo Leggera CL9 are good for small cases because they have not monstrous high coolers.

- DVD-burner start from 20 Euro, LG BluRay-burners are available for 75 Euro.

- Buy used or defective Western Digital 2,5 or 3 TB harddrives. WD has a very easy RMA procedure. Let you give the serial number and do a warranty check. You can send them to WD without having a bill or something.

- Mini-ITX-cases are enough available, but watch out for the fan height. An interesting Mini-ITX case is the Tacens Ixion, it is not Mac-Mini sized, but has space for full-size PCI-E cards, a lot of HD's and even a 3,5" slot from the front. So you probably could add an real Amiga 600, an A1200 will stick out a bit. Price including 300W PSU: 50 Euro. The Silentstorm Sugo SG-07 case is also nice.

I won't say it's cheap, but you can use this thing for Windows, Linux, 100% supported OSx86 and more. And it would last for a few years. Upgrading to the actual Haswell archtecture isn't useful, the most functions are less than 10% better, but the temperature and TDP are higher, due to the more powerful on-core graphics.

Too bad that AROS would never be compatible enough that it works good enough on those systems, because the community can't focus.

Posted on: 2013/7/24 4:57

Edited by RC_tech on 2013/7/24 5:44:14
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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@phoenixconsole:

Very good idea: Paying 70 or 150 Euro for an OS which has nearly no software. Very good investigation. And a bit advertisement, too.

I just checked your website, the only system which is worth the price is the M-7, but - oh wonder, it contains a Core i7! But including the geForce card it has a lot more power consumption like a system with a Core i7 3770S and pure Intel HD4000 gfx. It's also not sure which board is used, so it's a question if it's OSx86 compatible.

Posted on: 2013/7/23 12:26
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Re: iAROS just for Core i-CPUs

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On my Thinkpad x61t I have 15 MB graphics mem and 2,9 GB other mem, on a hosted 64bit-Version I had 64 MB graphic RAM, not more. My Android version too, until I changed the settings. But it wasn't possible to connect to the net or anything else.

What would you prefer to set as 'reference' platform? PowerPC? ARM? Hosted on Android? There is only a noticeable number of software for Intel-32bit. And, your are saying 'PC hardware gets too old' for an OS that's actually mostly designed for some AGP graphic cards?

Posted on: 2013/7/23 3:50
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