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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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What we don't want to do is to make more confusion. If Icaros does not want to go the abi v.1 route until 64-bit it is difficult to make this happen.

Paulo: I think that it will be very hard in the near future to be compatible with mothern computers both regarding sound, gfx and chipsets. As the development of 64-bit version with SMP is only in alpha state and even stalled regarding development I can not see how that version of AROS could come reality before years ahead, if ever to happen.
As new commits to AROS these days only go for abi v.1 I would like you to think about it is what we have to at least have some updates, progress to Icaros, AspireOS or AROS in general.
Thankfully Wava compiled and made Odyssey web-browser work with abi v.1
We also have PDF-reader, Janus-UAE and many other apps. and games compiled for abi v.1. I think it is now a matter to sort out what is realy important to compile for abi v.1 to move to that platform.

If you, and other Icaros users could name the apps, games that is realy needed for Icaros would you consider a move to abi v.1 32-bit?

It would also be for the developers to decide when abi v.1 is a stable branch before this could even happen. We don't want people to compile again and again if the API is broken.

I'm not in doubt this is the way to go and we could abandon abi v.0 completly and delete all abi v.0 stuff from the archives etc. Look at it as a new start and a way for the future. As you might know AROS was never realy ment in abi v.0 state to be ready. I don't know much about the differences but I know it is more compatible with the original Amiga OS 3.1 API.
Maybe someone like Neil could enlighten us about about the real differences and advantages going abi v.1

Again I would not like to see Icaros abi v.0 and maybe AspireOS going abi v.1. It would be confusing as hell. It must a joint agreement from the main developers and at least you.




Posted on: 3/8 5:04

Edited by nikolaos on 2018/3/8 5:26:31
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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From a developers POV abi v1 is nicer and more comfortable. Whenever I port something back to v0 for testing purposes I notice the shortcomings. I can't tell you concrete issues, but you notice all the missing details, which have not been ported back.

And if we talk about v0, what you all call v0 is not the "official" v0 as you can find it in the svn. It is a backport branch. So strictly speaking, we have more than one v0 currently.

Also keep in mind, that AROS/m68k is already v1. 64bit (x86_64) is v1 only, too (even if there is in theory a v1/i386).

As you asked for applications:
A migration from v0 to v1 is quite straight forward and I guess it is quite simple most of the time, just a recompile and some smaller fixes.

*But* a migration from v0/i386 to v1/i386 is useless, as v1/i386 is IMHO a dead end (does it work at all, never tried myself?). So you would also need to migrate to 64bit.

And a 64bit port for applications is in theory just a recompile, too. But in reality it can be quite painful, as a lot of stuff which did not matter in 32bit is really a showstopper in 64 bit environments.

Did you ever try to read iff files written with a 32bit application with a 64bit application? This is were the pain starts and this is just one minor problem.

So when it comes to Janus-UAE, there won't be a 64bit port (at least, not from me). It might be easier to get the WinUAE port finished (which is abiv1/64bit anyways) and merge the Janus-features in. The current WinUAE can be a 64 bit application, the old e-uae on which Janus-UAE is based, was never designed for 64bit back then.

But I don't have the time at the moment anyways, so both things won't happen in the near future anyways.


And there is still:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/documenta ... ications/drafts/abiv1.php

It was last updated 2008(!).

Posted on: 3/8 5:26
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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resources are few in terms of programmers, and then to run odyssey there is no need for a rayzen, however it is all in their hands and we can only wait or support them with donations, I think the work done until now is very important, and all of this is due to them.

Posted on: 3/8 5:43
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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I thank all the developers for already having a stable version of aros, it works well and well, I hope you will do the fixes proposed in the bounty and I will wait calmly the evolution on other architectures.

Posted on: 3/8 5:50
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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Quote:

nikolaos wrote:
If you, and other Icaros users could name the apps, games that is realy needed for Icaros would you consider a move to abi v.1 32-bit?


Hi Niko. As I already said, no.

You already know the law of distributions: the difficult part is not setting up a distro, it's mantaining it. If you need to figure out what apps are 'mandatory' from my point of view, you just need to download the Light edition and do a recursive directory scan of it. All files included in Icaros Desktop Light need to be recompiled to let Icaros v1 be... Icaros.

There are, of course, some lesser mandatory app, just think about the sound tracker, or timidity... but what would be Icaros without Dopus5, Janus-UAE, AmiStart to begin with?

Icaros Desktop is a very complex mix of programs, CLI utilities, shell and LUA scripts calling each other to give user quick results. But have a look at my recent efforts to add a PDF to PNG conversion option in Dopus 5 which would work even with spaces in paths or file names: only to do that, I need a port of Dopus5, a port of Ghostscript and, in the end, even a rebuild of the poorx command I compiled to link everything (and this is the easiest part).

Quote:

Oliver said:

*But* a migration from v0/i386 to v1/i386 is useless, as v1/i386 is IMHO a dead end (does it work at all, never tried myself?). So you would also need to migrate to 64bit.

And a 64bit port for applications is in theory just a recompile, too. But in reality it can be quite painful, as a lot of stuff which did not matter in 32bit is really a showstopper in 64 bit environments.

Did you ever try to read iff files written with a 32bit application with a 64bit application? This is were the pain starts and this is just one minor problem.

So when it comes to Janus-UAE, there won't be a 64bit port (at least, not from me). It might be easier to get the WinUAE port finished (which is abiv1/64bit anyways) and merge the Janus-features in. The current WinUAE can be a 64 bit application, the old e-uae on which Janus-UAE is based, was never designed for 64bit back then.


and I perfectly understand + agree.

Posted on: 3/8 8:04
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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Quote:

o1i wrote:
as v1/i386 is IMHO a dead end (does it work at all, never tried myself?).


yes. im using it as reference all the time. in turn, i do not know nothing about v0, except seldom cases when i had to test something against it, never ever compiled it myself.

i also do not compile 64bit as i prefer 32bit system for cross compiling.

Posted on: 3/8 14:24
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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Quote:

wawa wrote:
Quote:

o1i wrote:
as v1/i386 is IMHO a dead end (does it work at all, never tried myself?).


yes. im using it as reference all the time.


I use it all the time too.

Nikos, how about the other way around for now: backporting to v0? What do you feel you're missing on v0 that v1 has? Maybe I could backport some essentials?

Posted on: 3/10 7:34
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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Neil: It is not like I feel v.0 is lacking anything but it is always nice to have the latest code as it only go to v.1 now. It is nice if you backport if there at least come some bug fixes. That would be great :)

Posted on: 3/11 9:59
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Re: ABI v.1 stable or not

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Quote:

nikolaos wrote:

If you, and other Icaros users could name the apps, games that is realy needed for Icaros would you consider a move to abi v.1 32-bit?



Hi all

This is my two cents from a happy icaros user for years.

I've read in this thread, and agree with, that there is no point staying on x86 architecture. I think if there is a migration, it should be, as it has already been said, for a x64 with SMP support, because : AROS would be the FIRST amiga OS NG which has a real 64bits and multicore support !
(I'm not saying that I think that adding 12 cores µp on the X5000 is completely useless, nooooo)

The second reason is that : as it is a huge improvement, users can understand that it is not a easy one and that, as for every big migration (remember the migration between mac os 9 to mac os X, or from any version of zindoz to the next one...). Users WILL wait for softwares to be recompiled.

And there is not real need, IMHO, to delete all softwares from aros-archives, just add a new folder, like "aros new generation", or whatever it may be called.

For the list of softwares that are mandatory, here is my list :
- janus-uae (or any other emulation, but janus has some wonderfull integration options)
- oweb of course
- gfx softwares like zuneview and brothers
- music trackers !
- mp3 player
- screen grabber and screen cast software
- all C/System/Tools and Utilities folders
- french support

Ofcourse, I think that the biggest problem is the support for todays mainboards chipsets...

I know that the biggest second problem is the lack of devs...

This was my two cents,
Thanx to all for the huge work that is being done on aros,
Cheers,
Jess.

Posted on: 3/17 13:21
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