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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!
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Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
When I send you MoBO, CPU and RAM as mentioned (+fan) it would be all you need? I have planned to send you an 850W PSU in the case because if you/we upgrade to 1080TI you can need the power..
But if you say the components are enough I would like it (less work : ) )


I'm not sure offhand for the PSU - I will strip the machine down shortly and check (its hidden behind a metal panel in the case, so I cant see what specification it has), though it is relatively new (less than 2yrs old) - and for now atleast a 1080ti is unucessary.


Posted on: 6/12 12:39
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!

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Kalamatee wrote:
Quote:

paolone wrote:

I wonder what "hardware features needed for debugging code" are perentorily missing from these new little beasts by AMD (that's a question, not a criticysm, so please tell me and I'll try at least to ask someone at AMD).


Things like SGX, which make it easy to spot erroneous code.

SGX is not a debugging feature (it HAS debugging capabilities, but for its main purpose), but it's for software protection (creating the so called "secure enclave").
Quote:
If you want a comprehensive list of all the features Im afraid I cannot do that offhand - suffice to say they are only intel extensions that michal and myself had discussed using in the past to help us develop the SMP code

I think that you're talking about Intel's MPX, which is certainly a very good solution for catching bugs like bad memory accesses, or the more nasty "use-after-free/delete".

Even having only this feature certainly deserve every single penny, because it's a HUGE help for developers, and especially with very fragile o.ses like Amiga-like ones.

However it requires support by the compiler and libc, because it generates special instructions to check pointer binaries. I don't know which GCC version implements MPX support, but AROS's "libc" also needs to be changed.

Another hardware feature that can help debugging is Intel's Processor Trace, which allows to track instructions execution, and so to re-create a complete, exact status of processor history. Unfortunately this generates TONs of data and requires software that ad-hoc filters such massive amount of information.
Quote:
(and they only exist in relatively new cpus, so around 8th generation)

No, Intel's CPUs from 6th to 8th are exactly the same: same core, and same features. Only the so called "uncore" is a bit different.

So, you can already find the above technologies (SGX too) starting from Skylake.

However doesn't make sense to buy a Skylake today, with CoffeLake which can reach higher frequencies and so better performances. This is absolutely important with many single process/thread code, which is the vast majority, especially in the Amiga land.

Regarding AMD, I don't know if the latest Ryzen CPUs support any those features. AMD has some security technology which rivals with Intel's SGX, but I've no information about providing debugging features like Intel's MPX and/or Processor Trace.

Posted on: 6/15 11:17
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!
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Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
Quote:

Kalamatee wrote:
Quote:

paolone wrote:

I wonder what "hardware features needed for debugging code" are perentorily missing from these new little beasts by AMD (that's a question, not a criticysm, so please tell me and I'll try at least to ask someone at AMD).


Things like SGX, which make it easy to spot erroneous code.

SGX is not a debugging feature (it HAS debugging capabilities, but for its main purpose), but it's for software protection (creating the so called "secure enclave").
Quote:
If you want a comprehensive list of all the features Im afraid I cannot do that offhand - suffice to say they are only intel extensions that michal and myself had discussed using in the past to help us develop the SMP code

I think that you're talking about Intel's MPX, which is certainly a very good solution for catching bugs like bad memory accesses, or the more nasty "use-after-free/delete".

Even having only this feature certainly deserve every single penny, because it's a HUGE help for developers, and especially with very fragile o.ses like Amiga-like ones.

However it requires support by the compiler and libc, because it generates special instructions to check pointer binaries. I don't know which GCC version implements MPX support, but AROS's "libc" also needs to be changed.

Another hardware feature that can help debugging is Intel's Processor Trace, which allows to track instructions execution, and so to re-create a complete, exact status of processor history. Unfortunately this generates TONs of data and requires software that ad-hoc filters such massive amount of information.
Quote:
(and they only exist in relatively new cpus, so around 8th generation)

No, Intel's CPUs from 6th to 8th are exactly the same: same core, and same features. Only the so called "uncore" is a bit different.

So, you can already find the above technologies (SGX too) starting from Skylake.

However doesn't make sense to buy a Skylake today, with CoffeLake which can reach higher frequencies and so better performances. This is absolutely important with many single process/thread code, which is the vast majority, especially in the Amiga land.


The point is not to specify specific extensions, or to identify when they where first introduced - but to explain that SGX and other extensions we wanted to use (regardless of what other things the wiki says they are used for) aren't available on other architectures, and to specify a suitable CPU for my needs.

Yes, MPX is also something we want to try and take advantage of (and was one of the first sets of extensions michal and I discussed), but dragging out this discussion for everyone's opinion on what I need is getting silly and confusing people who don't have a clue.

Ive said what I need to continue working effectively on things, and why - its that simple. If people want to waste my time with pointless discussions on why they think I need to use different architectures, or what they think extensions and such are for we get nowhere.

Quote:

Regarding AMD, I don't know if the latest Ryzen CPUs support any those features. AMD has some security technology which rivals with Intel's SGX, but I've no information about providing debugging features like Intel's MPX and/or Processor Trace.

Posted on: 6/16 7:26
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!

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Be quite: taking a looking at the already written messages there was already a lot of time wasted in pointless discussions. So, don't try to diverge the discussion using this excuse: it doesn't work.
I don't like the rude way that you use when someone looks to be against you (in YOUR eyes), but I'm not the one which is scared of this attitude and certainly I'll not shut my mouth for this reason. Understood? Be polite, like everybody here wer with you.

Anyway my message was perfectly pertinent / in topic, and not even a waste of time (I can say that it was for me a waste of time, at this point).

As you already stated in this thread, you need a new PC with new hardware extensions which helps you in:
- debugging;
- handling a lot of virtual machines for building several images.

The second point isn't worth a discussion, because both Intel and AMD CPUs give ad-hoc extensions which help a lot accelerating on this specific task, and are well supported by the current software.

So, it's only debugging which is left, and I've already clearly explained what's the situation at Intel side.

However you continue to talk about SGX, which is NOT a debugging extension, as I've previously stated: it's for creating so called "secure enclaves", which are protected environments where running code, which prevents (not 100%: see the latest Spectre variants) malicious attacks, reverse engineering, and similar things.

I don't need to take a look at wiki for stating this, because I've a deep knowledge of computer architectures, and specifically having worked at the Application Debugger team at Intel for 3.5 years I know "something". Specifically, I got the first Skylake silicon (stepping A0) which I've used to create an automated test suite for... guess what... "just" the upcoming SGX extension.

So, again: SGX is NOT useful for your declared purposes. In your last message you said that you want to use it anyway, but that's a DIFFERENT thing. Maybe you want to tinker with SGX, like playing with a new toy, which I can understand since I'm a coder and I like play as well with new fancy technological things. But, again, that's something which has NOTHING to do with your original purpose.

Now, going back to your needs, previously you said that you want to use Intel processors because they had features which helped you on your work, and which AMD lacked. What features you're talking about? What was missing from AMD processors? Be clear and specific, please, because I'm not aware of debugging extensions in the past processors which AMD missed.

MPX is certainly NOT in this list because it's a new thing and, according to what you said, you want to use it (now), so you had not chance yet. And it's normal, since it needs both a compiler and libc support, like I stated before.

Processor Trace is even worse: it requires libraries and very good tools to extract and manipulate in a useful & smart way such super-massive quantity of data which it generates.

So, which plans do you have for supporting those extensions on AROS for developing AROS? How can they help you NOW on developing AROS, if AROS is completely lacking support for them? As you can imagine, it will require time, and meanwhile what you'll do? Stop working on current AROS tasks? Be clear.

TL;DR: make a list of debugging extensions which you need for the purposes that you already talked about. And a list of debugging extensions which previous/older AMD processors lacked, because it doesn't sound a true thing.

We are engineers, and I think that it's better to stick to facts, right? AMD processors which consume too much and require bigger cooling system is NOT a fact, for example (at least looking at the new offer from this chip vendor).

Since people is offering HIS money for buying a PC for specific purposes, being clear and precise regarding the specs is at least a courtesy, if not even mandatory...

Posted on: 6/16 14:50
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!
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That’s a great story. Well have fun doing the work because I’m really not interested in compromising my needs based on others opinions. People asked what I need to continue - i told them (period).

It’s not something up for discussion, so yes it gets tiring everytime someone tries to say what I need. Clearly you are better informed about what I actually need to continue development, just like all the other experts on the subject on here. I’m happy to return to watching AROS go nowhere, the same as it has for the past year that I’ve been out of action.

Don’t want to see it change - don’t help. It matters not to me.

Posted on: 6/16 15:08
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!

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So basically you want a new super-expensive toy to play with, but paid by others.

Sorry for being rude, but it's your bad attitude that deserve it.

EDIT. You added this later, and I reply now:
Quote:

It’s not something up for discussion, so yes it gets tiring everytime someone tries to say what I need. Clearly you are better informed about what I actually need to continue development, just like all the other experts on the subject on here.

Yes, that's certainly true: I'm definitely much better informed, because I know what debugging extensions existed for Intel and AMD CPUs, and I know the new ones

In fact, you clearly shown that:
- you don't know which extensions were missing from older AMD CPUs, and which Intel CPUs offered you for helping on developing AROS;
- you don't know what SGX was/is, and for which thing it's useful;
- you don't even know which processor generation integrated the new extensions, and that the last 3 Intel cpu cores are IDENTICAL.

Bad lack for you that I've actively worked at Intel at the Application Debugger team, and I know quite well all that things, since I've actively worked on many of those (and some top secret projects in the debugging area).
Quote:
I’m happy to return to watching AROS go nowhere, the same as it has for the past year that I’ve been out of action.

Don’t want to see it change - don’t help. It matters not to me.

Now you're slipping in a pathetic victimism.

You tried to take profit of people which have no knowledge about the above technological things, getting out of money for a new toy which you want to play with.

I've asked you PRECISE, TECHNICAL questions about your statements and your real needs for supporting AROS, and you answered back with a childish melodrama.

You can try to cheat other people, but not me.

Grow.

Posted on: 6/16 15:12

Edited by cdimauro on 2018/6/16 15:35:30
Edited by cdimauro on 2018/6/16 15:40:01
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!
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kalamatee already has a setup. which is broken.. he just wants the specific Hardware to continue without changing his setup!

That's all

Posted on: 6/16 15:41
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!
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Gl guys I’m done with this nonsense - pascal you might aswell put your money into cdimauro who clearly knows bettter than me how to continue with the work I’ve done on aros.

Pathetic.

Posted on: 6/16 15:45
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!

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@AROS-Confidence1: No, that's not all the true story. Read all messages that were written from the beginning.

@Kalamatee: pathetic is the one which tried to cheat people, picking from their wallets for getting a new toy.

My technical questions are still waiting for technical answers/facts. Which you clearly don't want to give, and now you're trying to change the cards on the table in a childish way.

Posted on: 6/16 15:46
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Re: Core i9 Development Hardware for kalamatee paid from the AROS Fund!

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Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
When I send you MoBO, CPU and RAM as mentioned (+fan) it would be all you need? I have planned to send you an 850W PSU in the case because if you/we upgrade to 1080TI you can need the power..
But if you say the components are enough I would like it (less work : ) )


$20,000 and you can have it and do what you want with it.

Posted on: 6/16 17:00
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AMD FX 9370, 32 Gigs Ram, Radeon RX 480.(Might be a slight overkill for AROS) :)
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