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Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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Are those Vampire guys going To build aros smp build for Vampire? Or just adding support their thread library?

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=6668


Posted on: 6/22 12:03
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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This could realy be a game changer for
68k to run more modern apps. 8 core 060 or
080. Interesting. Sure apps most be developed or modified to use it.

Posted on: 6/23 2:15
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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When I first heard about SMP being added to x64, I wondered if it could benefit also possible 'experimental' architectures like, for instance, a custom version of UAE using 2 or more 68K cores. The Vampire team is now achieving a series of technological developments over the original M68K architectures that AROS can support with the right code.

Now I SINCERELY hope that all those amiga-naysayers who never understood the importance of having a free, independent, easily-customizable AmigaOS re-implementation will finally find their answer. Vampire team is evolving the Amiga platform. AROS is evolving the Amiga platform. The others just sell old code (sometimes they even not developed). And that's all.

Posted on: 6/23 5:58
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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Paolo +1

I was always with AROS since it ran on cheap but still mothern hardware. That we now see new powerfull 68k hardware and AROS is the obious OS for it. It is kind of Amiga is back. WHO would ever have tought. I Will buy vampire when it comes as stand alone unit.

Posted on: 6/23 7:58
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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NovaCoder, of SCUMM and other conversions, said he would rejoin the scene with the standalone as well.

I think alot of people, myself included, dragged their feet with regards to AROS. The Vampire seems to change that.

Exciting times ahead!

Posted on: 6/23 11:03
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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https://vimeo.com/222892444

Quick Aros 68k Origyn Web Browser (OWB) test with Vampire 500 V2

Amiga 2000
Vampire 500 V2 (GOLD 2.5/Alternative Kick3.1)
Picasso IV
Ariadne Network card

Posted on: 6/23 14:32
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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Quote:

paolone wrote:
When I first heard about SMP being added to x64, I wondered if it could benefit also possible 'experimental' architectures like, for instance, a custom version of UAE using 2 or more 68K cores. The Vampire team is now achieving a series of technological developments over the original M68K architectures that AROS can support with the right code.

Now I SINCERELY hope that all those amiga-naysayers who never understood the importance of having a free, independent, easily-customizable AmigaOS re-implementation will finally find their answer. Vampire team is evolving the Amiga platform. AROS is evolving the Amiga platform. The others just sell old code (sometimes they even not developed). And that's all.


Nail + head = hit

Cheers,
Nigel.

Posted on: 6/23 14:33
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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I agree that AROS is the right answer/solution for using this new feature, but it's only the last one of unwanted / not useful features which are developed by the Apollo team.

Before that there were:
- 64 bits;
- incompatible MMU;
- the so called AMMX SIMD extension (which, BTW, is an HORRIBLE patch over the 68K ISA. I took a look at it and its opcodes structure, some time ago, and I'm still puking).

All not useful features, since there's no software neither o.ses which use them (SMP in AROS is still at an experimental stage).

Whereas the Apollo CPU is still missing the FPU (I mean: a 68K-compliant FPU) and the MMU (same as before), which are certainly much more useful compared to the above stuff.

And which customers are continuously asking for, looking at EAB, Amigaworld, and even on the Apollo forum (except for the threads which are "sanitized", removing all "annoying" posts. Annoying for the Apollo members, of course).

And speaking about just improving performance, an out-of-order design would have been a much more useful feature instead of continuing with the current in-order implementation (even counting all nice things/tricks implemented), for two reasons:
- it doesn't require a specific support at application and/or o.s. level;
- it gives a concrete, sensible boost (take a look at what happened to the other architectures when they moved from the in-order design to an OoO one).

It's quite evident that such decisions show a clear lack of vision for the platform. And before pointing the finger at me, take a look at what says a well-known people from the Amiga/68K land:

http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1113631&postcount=8
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1166948&postcount=43

I don't think that Toni Wilen is the last guy which can speak about such arguments.

Anyway, at the very end it's not even that much important, since we are talking about a platform which is dead and will never have any chance to raise again (some thousands of pieces sold cannot change the situation), with the market being dominated by other architectures which offer modern and really useful features (sorry Mat: you too are wrong here, with your dreams of a 68K revival. The world is not all about code-density and 32-bit pointers).

And I find rather funny (because it can only be funny reading statements about these nowadays) that peoples are demanding a return to hardware-banging and writing assembly code. On 2017...

My 2 cents.

Posted on: 6/24 6:20
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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From my POV Apollo team is doing a great job. Let´s start be positive about it.

- Old 68K Amiga computers are compatible with old code, but slow and obsolete now.
- PowerPC Amiga computers are not compatible with old code (only with emulation), relative fast and now arquitecture is obsolete too, outside from server´s market. No future for it.
- X86 is great and fast but no compatible with old code (only through emulation) and difficult to get stable drivers due to the infinite hardware´s providers. Impossible to get a fully compatible driver, so AROS development could become eternal and slow.
- Apollo CPU highly compatible with old code, relative fast and has important enhancements to run nowadays code on it. I think is the perfect gate between old hardware, old software, AROS and new software too.

Lets try to run old code on an i7/i9/Ryzen CPU without emulator, drivers or patches and let´s see what happens... Because there is no fully compatibility too with an old 8086, 80286, 80386 PC....

I understand there is people who have invested thousand of hours developing and working in their own business/solution for the Amiga market and probably they do not see with good eyes Apollo core. But are the users the ones they choose what to use and what not...

And regarding Vampire boards sold... Market says Apollo Core is the way :)

Cheers,
Rollmeter

Posted on: 6/25 1:49
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Re: Vampire hyper threading and aros smp

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Quote:

rollmeter wrote:
From my POV Apollo team is doing a great job. Let´s start be positive about it.

Well, it's a new toy for 68K fans, which finally bring something new and cool.

Nothing to say from this point-of-view: they delivered a great product.
Quote:
- Old 68K Amiga computers are compatible with old code, but slow and obsolete now.
- PowerPC Amiga computers are not compatible with old code (only with emulation), relative fast and now arquitecture is obsolete too, outside from server´s market. No future for it.

PowerPC (POWER, in reality) isn't outside of the servers market.

PowerPC (as a desktop/consumer product) is a dead platform, like 68K.
Quote:
- X86 is great and fast but no compatible with old code (only through emulation)

I don't see the problem with the emulation: it allows the revival of old 68K software, in a much more comfortable way. And it's CHEAP.

It also allows to use an enhanced 68K platform, which didn't existed: more memory (even chip mem), much higher performance, much better RTG, etc. etc..

What really counts is what you get from a platform: not how the work is done (internally).
Quote:
and difficult to get stable drivers due to the infinite hardware´s providers. Impossible to get a fully compatible driver, so AROS development could become eternal and slow.

That's not true. There's a huge-enough list of AROS compatible hardware. It's all about picking what you need.
Quote:
- Apollo CPU highly compatible with old code, relative fast and has important enhancements to run nowadays code on it. I think is the perfect gate between old hardware, old software, AROS and new software too.

Not all software runs on Apollo, and that's the main (and understandable) critic.

Apollo is claimed to be 100% 68K compatible, but that's simply not true, since it lacks an FPU and an MMU. I mean, one of the 68K FPUs / MMUs which were used by the Amiga software.
Quote:
Lets try to run old code on an i7/i9/Ryzen CPU without emulator, drivers or patches and let´s see what happens... Because there is no fully compatibility too with an old 8086, 80286, 80386 PC....

You can still run old 8086 software on a PC, because the PC platform is still backward compatible.

The exact contrary with the 68K platform, where EACH processor is INCOMPATIBLE with the others: 68000 != 68010 != 68020 != 68030 != 68040 != 68060.

Motorola did a big mess with its 68K processors family.

Intel, instead, maintained a full backward-compatibility. For the good and the bad.
Quote:
I understand there is people who have invested thousand of hours developing and working in their own business/solution for the Amiga market and probably they do not see with good eyes Apollo core.

That's normal: nobody wants competition!
Quote:
But are the users the ones they choose what to use and what not...

There are also users which have chosen an Apollo board which was (and still is) marketed as 100% 68K compatibile, but they are/weren't able to run 68K software which used FPU and/or MMU.
Quote:
And regarding Vampire boards sold... Market says Apollo Core is the way :)

Cheers,
Rollmeter

Selling 2 thousands boards is a great result, but doesn't change the reality: the 68K platform is dead, and will never resurrect.

You have to take it as is: just a retro platform. That's it.

Posted on: 6/25 2:34
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