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Re: Bounty system

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Quote:

Mysha wrote:
Hi,

> Is the AROS wikibook maintained?
Not that I know of.


I would agree with that observation. I had originally planned to maintain it, but someone else took ownership (of their own accord and without discussion) and turned it into the mess of 1st/3rd person rambling/blog like entries it has become.

The poor/inconsistent/unprofessional
Language used doesn’t reflect well on the project IMHO, particularly with people who speak English as a first language.

Quote:

> Should it be killed to eliminate multiple conflicting sources of information?

Mostly, we need to decide what to do with it. If we want to use the wiki-ness, then we should have (almost) all our documentation there, harvesting mature pages (licenses allowing) so our offline documentation develops as well. In that case we need it actively maintained.
If we just want it for online-book-hood, then we develop the docs in the SVN, and pump out stable pages to the online-book. That just needs a warning that others may temporarily scribble what they will, there. (You'd actually want a different wiki (if at all), or different settings for that; the content would have to be protected and the scribbling would be done in the comment area, much like the wikiwikiweb had it.)


Well the main reason I started it originally was because the markup language used for the aros.org website isn’t particularly easy to work with, and held back updating of documentation. But once people started turning it into the mess it has become I lost interest (there are only so many hours in a day, which I would prefer to put to coding than continually fixing the docs)


Quote:

> communicating an up-to-date roadmap, especially areas that need work

We seem to find it difficult to communicate that on the level of doable chunks.


There is no roadmap as such, due to the hobby nature of people’s input to the project. While there are things people would like to achieve or see - nothing is set in stone. Attempts to force directions already chased alway some of our more able devs.


Quote:

> encouraging new developers and ensuring "getting started" documentation is up to date

Having "Getting started" information to begin with.


I would love better developer resources (even a separate area of the aros domain such as developer.aros.org) or things like Microsoft’s knowledgebase - but we lack people capable or interested in doing it.

Quote:

> What does everyone think?

We're rarely attracting that kind of people. Best you can do is pick one of these goals, and a level of activity that you're comfortable with to strive for that goal yourself. It's the involvement of large numbers of people that might make it work. (Chicken and egg, of course.)

Mysha


AROS has always gone through dips and spikes of interest, and until such time as it becomes complete/stable/feature rich enough to maintain/sustain interest I personally don’t see it changing.

Posted on: 5/14 9:50
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Re: Bounty system

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Quote:

Kalamatee wrote:

I would love better developer resources (even a separate area of the aros domain such as developer.aros.org) or things like Microsoft’s knowledgebase - but we lack people capable or interested in doing it.

...


AROS has always gone through dips and spikes of interest, and until such time as it becomes complete/stable/feature rich enough to maintain/sustain interest I personally don’t see it changing.


That certainly would happen faster with more devs =)

Where would you recommend somebody start in trying to understand the AROS code-base on x86?


Posted on: 5/14 20:38
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Re: Bounty system

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Quote:

remotenemesis wrote:
Quote:

Kalamatee wrote:

I would love better developer resources (even a separate area of the aros domain such as developer.aros.org) or things like Microsoft’s knowledgebase - but we lack people capable or interested in doing it.

...


AROS has always gone through dips and spikes of interest, and until such time as it becomes complete/stable/feature rich enough to maintain/sustain interest I personally don’t see it changing.


That certainly would happen faster with more devs =)

Where would you recommend somebody start in trying to understand the AROS code-base on x86?


Before anything you should familiarise yourself with the AmigaOS API's (if you aren't already) - since AROS is an implementation of it, and how things work is not the same as Linux/Windows/BSD.

If you are familiar, then it entirely depends what you want to understand about AROS. The source tree is constructed so that the items which would be in the AmigaOS ROM (or other platforms which would use a ROM) are in src/rom, "arch" specific code (e.g. bootstrapping, low level hardware abstractions) are in src/arch, and general "workbench" (the bulk of the OS) items under src/workbench

src/tools contains things which are compiled for the "build" machine, such as the cross compiler toolchain and dependencies.

src/config contains the AROS templates used by metamake to expand macros in the mmakefile.src files, aswell as configuration files used by the build system/sdk.

src/compiler contains some base headers, the crt and some other support libraries.

src/scripts contains files used mostly by the nightly build servers.

Posted on: 5/14 23:44
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Re: Bounty system

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Thanks, I'm still on stage 0 there.

Posted on: 5/15 8:34
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Re: Bounty system

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maybe not everything needs in and out knowledge of amiga os up front. certainly there are references that can be pulled off net, when researching particular subjects.

i got to aros testing amiga-m68k target for its developers. at some point i wanted to debug things better so i learned to compile it and then to make simple modifications to the code. thats about all i can, but i can help a bit i hope.

so maybe fetching and building the source would be a good starting point, you can then see whats there to be improved or implemented or even check the bug reports for what needs to be done yet.

Posted on: 5/15 12:57
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Re: Bounty system

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Quote:

wawa wrote:
maybe not everything needs in and out knowledge of amiga os up front. certainly there are references that can be pulled off net, when researching particular subjects.


If you don't understand why amigaos is different to how things work on other operating systems, then you wont understand the aros code base or how components interact. Not only that you will likely mess up code on AROS due to your ignorance, or start bringing unwanted linux'isms etc.

Yes, regardless of what you think - you need to have a grasp of these things to work with AROS effectively (and AmigaOS in general).

Quote:

i got to aros testing amiga-m68k target for its developers. at some point i wanted to debug things better so i learned to compile it and then to make simple modifications to the code. thats about all i can, but i can help a bit i hope.

so maybe fetching and building the source would be a good starting point, you can then see whats there to be improved or implemented or even check the bug reports for what needs to be done yet.


Posted on: 5/15 13:46
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Re: Bounty system

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my point is that it is hard to expect that a lot of people have in and out knowledge of amiga os as it is a closed source. there certainly are people who gained such expert knowledge by some exceptional circumstances such as toni developing winuae. but they are rather few and far apart.

on the other hand jasons example proves that if you are a talented coder you can be a newbie to the system and yet become a valuable contributor.

therefore i think its worth to encourage people. not everyone needs to mess with aros core components to begin with. and the concepts that differ amiga or aros from say linux can be communicated.

Posted on: 5/15 14:12
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Re: Bounty system

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Quote:

wawa wrote:
my point is that it is hard to expect that a lot of people have in and out knowledge of amiga os as it is a closed source. there certainly are people who gained such expert knowledge by some exceptional circumstances such as toni developing winuae. but they are rather few and far apart.


Please read what he has asked and what I have said instead of rambling nonsense. I haven't said you need to have intimate knowledge of AmigaOS, but to be familiar with its API's - and particularly how components are implemented on AmigaOS compared to Linux.

Quote:

on the other hand jasons example proves that if you are a talented coder you can be a newbie to the system and yet become a valuable contributor.


How do you know how familiar with AmigaOS Jason was? you are making an unfounded claim to back your argumentative stance. I think you will find Jason understand quite well how AmigaOS differs to other operating systems.

Quote:

therefore i think its worth to encourage people. not everyone needs to mess with aros core components to begin with. and the concepts that differ amiga or aros from say linux can be communicated.


What has "messing with aros core components" have to do with understanding the AmigaOS API's?

Here is the original question again just to help you out, and I quote ..

"Where would you recommend somebody start in trying to understand the AROS code-base on x86?"

There is a saying in English - "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and it is particularly true when it comes to touching something as complex as AROS. If you dont even understand the basics of AmigaOS (how shared libraries differ, how everything is based off the concept of nodes/lists) - you will run into a wall, or worse.

Posted on: 5/15 15:14
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Re: Bounty system

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Kalamatee wrote:

Please read what he has asked and what I have said instead of rambling nonsense.
[quote]

i didnt intend to get between vodka and snacks, as we say. certainly you are much better person to instruct newcomers. just wanted to spare your time. sorry, where it was wrong.

all i wanted to say was, that awareness of particularities of amiga system in comparison to linux, for whoever is used to it (i wasnt, i learned linux to compile amiga stuff) may build up in a process of involvement. i know it may be bothersome for authorities in the field, to answer some stupid questions, as result, but likely many of us have a bag of these, left in the corner, no matter where we come from.

i really wouldnt even assume people are coming to us from linux, even if this is rather founded, given that linux and bsd and such alike are the major open source communities out there.

[quote]
How do you know how familiar with AmigaOS Jason was?


admittedly, i dont know. i have had a lot of private mail exchange with jason, mostly on detail issues, such as with yourself, also outside the dev ml, thats probably what i base my opinion on. perhaps i shouldn't expose it, but my impression from this was, that there will always be something left to learn, which shouldn't completely hold you back from contributing. given there is an instance on a higher level, that keeps an eye on you. perhaps that is aros and other amiga platforms fate, that this hierarchy has got lost and too much responsibility rests on too few.

Quote:

There is a saying in English - "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"


i know.

Quote:

If you dont even understand the basics of AmigaOS (how shared libraries differ, how everything is based off the concept of nodes/lists) - you will run into a wall, or worse.


and i understand this. if you are referring to overlapping functions/variables in global webkit and amiga/AROS api i have chosen to postpone the solution, you have suggested, till i can actually better understand what and how to do, before i mess it up to no recognition. my decision was, for the time being, to disable two functions on my local code base to see where it leads me, where more issues may arise.

edit:
as it occurs, except of mui/zune issues of parametrizing callbacks, expected on m68k target, there seem to be only two linking obstacles left, id blame to gcc c++11 m68k lack of maintenance.

but ist only an example, an isolated problem. lets not go offtopic here.

Posted on: 5/18 9:45
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Re: Bounty system

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Don't bring fighting in here, please! Stay reasonable!

Posted on: 5/19 6:38
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